tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post1817654990746379514..comments2023-11-10T08:26:51.182-06:00Comments on Beth Loves Bollywood: moments in filmi feminism (the first installment in an occasional series): the restaurant brawl in Chak De! IndiaBeth Loves Bollywoodhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05540154833326987567noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-74703059774338358742009-06-24T11:11:08.905-05:002009-06-24T11:11:08.905-05:00i think this makes sense. these things aren't ...i think this makes sense. these things aren't new in India and happen every other day in any city!author_number_2https://www.blogger.com/profile/06885037429065858139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-20728683225399482722009-03-25T22:56:00.000-05:002009-03-25T22:56:00.000-05:00I also am often dismayed by how violence is the "r...I also am often dismayed by how violence is the "resolution" in Indian movies. I haven't watched most of the Angry Young Man movies for that reason, and have thought a fair amount about what it is that seems to make it psychologically impossible for characters to be angry, contain it, and struggle something out in some other way.<BR/><BR/>But: I am one more person who responded entirely positively to this scene in this movie - as I wrote somewhere else, it's the only time in my life, in fact, that I can remember when I was entirely exhilarated by a movie fight.<BR/><BR/>Something that is clear as day to me is this, you do not deal with real abuse, by reason or talk - it has no effect. Abuse comes from a power stance, not an interactive stance. And the abuse of women in the way shown here, commonplace in India and only recently not commonplace in the US (I am old enough to remember it), is unquestionably force-backed: putting aside the reasons why they (or anybody) want to do so, the men who behave this way do so because they are in general bigger and stronger than women, and when they are doing this they are exploiting exactly that fact - they know that you know that they can kill you if they want to.<BR/><BR/>That I think is a main reason why the women banding together to beat them up is so "positive." Because it dramatizes the fact that a group of women - women who are strong intentionally, too -- can at least sometimes be strong enough to contain [in the military sense] a man or men: it dramatizes the potential force, and as many have commented it dramatizes the power of women joining together.<BR/><BR/>And Bitterlemons noted something I was thinking about too - we don't need to be sentimental about the environment getting damaged, because the environment did not provide any protection at all. It's like feeling sorry for poor Mom who looked out the window while Dad beat you up.<BR/><BR/>And - I was also aware when I saw it that I have almost never seen women in Hindi movies do anything at all to help each other.<BR/><BR/>VIRGINIA<BR/>.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-2271113100570742442008-10-31T03:55:00.000-05:002008-10-31T03:55:00.000-05:00Hi Beth!Little late, but here's my two cents:I hav...Hi Beth!<BR/><BR/>Little late, but here's my two cents:<BR/><BR/>I have spent three years in Delhi and am sick of the countless times I have been molested, groped or catcalled in public.<BR/><BR/>And the thing is, whenever I called for help, NO ONE did. Not even other women around.<BR/><BR/>I guess thats why I loved the scene, the fact that they support each other.<BR/><BR/>Totally agree with some of the other points, regarding suppressed rage, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-20963830699628582122008-10-06T05:27:00.000-05:002008-10-06T05:27:00.000-05:00I agree with you Beth. I think a lot of very good ...I agree with you Beth. I think a lot of very good Indian films are ruined by unneccesary throwing in of violence into it. Like Rang De Basanti which was a wonderful film in the first half, lost it in the second half but ending was just awful. Remember DDLJ and shahrukh being beaten up by Kajol's relatives. Good thing, however, that i notice is violence is gradually decreasing quite a bit in to hindi cinema over the years and hopefully will be lot less in coming years.<BR/><BR/>I also didnt like taking constant jibes at cricket which was silly and not necessary.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-31305107835553801102008-09-04T16:10:00.000-05:002008-09-04T16:10:00.000-05:00Beth, be thankful you haven't seen many sports fil...Beth, be thankful you haven't seen many sports films! I definitely didn't see the fight scene as "women acting irrational." In a male sports film, such a scene wouldn't be given a second thought.<BR/><BR/><I>Chak De! India</I> shows athletes who sweat, swear, fight, argue, break up with their selfish partners, and finally band together as a team. That the athletes involved are women is both the point, and something handled in a matter-of fact way. And for me, that's the most remarkable thing about the movie.Pessimisissimohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04223566131580795337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-63500062524765933572008-09-04T15:30:00.000-05:002008-09-04T15:30:00.000-05:00Ack got lost in some other stuff and have been slo...Ack got lost in some other stuff and have been slow to respond lately. Here we go!<BR/><BR/>Kanan - Thank you, and I'm glad you shared your thoughts too. I should do a post like this about this movie - it'd be hard to keep it to ten.<BR/><BR/>Interesting <I>Monsoon Wedding</I> parallel. I'll have to go watch that again. As I recall, what I found most satisfying about that plot line is that she gets other people to believe her by exposing the perpetrator - and he ends up being his own punishment. <BR/><BR/>Rum - Yeah, that's pretty stinko. I'm not always very attuned to regional stereotypes in US movies and literature; the most common one I notice is how southerners are often depicted as (or assumed to be) racist and/or stupid. Not cool. <BR/><BR/>Mayank - I'm not sure I quite follow all of what you're saying, but if I understand you correctly, I find the idea of man-bashing pretty harmful (tempting as it may be from time to time). As many commenters have said, and I agree, the playing field for women and men is very, very different, and there are a lot of behaviors and ideas that I don't think quite fall under "double standard" because they're not in fact equal or equitable. Your point #4 is especially applicable here, I think, and that's a bit of what troubles me about this scene. <BR/><BR/>In a perfect world - which none of us lives in - we could all just be humanists and let go of gender as a basis for making decisions, judging situations, evaluating behavior or speech, etc. I doubt it will ever happen. <BR/><BR/>And I agree with you that men suffer from stereotypes too - showing emotion makes them weak, expectations of being physically or emotionally tough, etc. <BR/><BR/>thechasinglamb - I wish you had it on film too, so I could see! :) <BR/><BR/>Pessimissimo - You're right about the conventions, I have no doubt. I haven't seen a ton of sports movies (that I remember, anyway), and I can see how this scene fits into those. I just wanted something different, I guess, and maybe that was unreasonable/unlikely. <BR/><BR/>One thing I've just realized that I don't think anyone has brought up yet is whether women acting in ways that could be interpreted as "irrational" or "overly emotional" can just serve as "evidence" to those who think women don't have mental faculties to equal men's. That is, women acting like hooligans - lashing out - "proves" that women cannot be trusted to think and behave calmly, rationally, reasonably. I'm delighted the movie didn't have anyone voice this, of course; I'm wondering if anyone saw it that way. I have sneaking suspicions that this interpretation would be voiced by the bad/mean/villain characters if this were an American movie with American girls beating up a bunch of guys. And male onlookers would wolf-whistle (in the film and in the theater). <BR/><BR/>Sorry for all the finger-quotes. There's a lot of so-called and might-be-interpreted in this kind of discussion.Beth Loves Bollywoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05540154833326987567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-57197471927512899912008-09-02T15:59:00.000-05:002008-09-02T15:59:00.000-05:00Beth, I'm coming somewhat late to a great discussi...Beth, I'm coming somewhat late to a great discussion. I don't have much to add, except <I>Chak De! India</I>--a remarkable film in many respects--faithfully follows many of the conventions of established by other sports films: the montages of grueling workouts, the disgraced coach seeking redemption, the underdogs facing the heavy favorites in the Big Game, etc. etc.<BR/><BR/>From this perspective, the brawl in the fast-food place is another conventional scene. Usually in these kinds of films the taunting is done by rivals, and the team finds itself having to unite to defend its members. As a result of this trial by fire, the fractious individuals coalesce into a team.<BR/><BR/>I liked the scene, not because I enjoy seeing women fight, but because a) those obnoxious guys were asking for it, b) there's plenty of provocation--doesn't the main mouthpiece shove one of the women?--and c) because in a sports film a brawl is a necessary rite of passage for the creation of a team. It was another way of showing how strong, tough, and resilient these women were.Pessimisissimohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04223566131580795337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-58400307757685905312008-09-01T23:05:00.000-05:002008-09-01T23:05:00.000-05:00the problems that you discuss are real of course. ...the problems that you discuss are real of course. Having said that, what I wish I had on film is the audience reaction when I was watching it in a small-ish cinema in East Delhi. All the women in the audience were screaming and yelling and hooting and laughing. Ah how we love to see our fellow men in Delhi get beaten.The Chasing Iambhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16019670771528222088noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-74012558703002319672008-08-30T10:07:00.000-05:002008-08-30T10:07:00.000-05:00Indian people have bipolar tendencies you will see...Indian people have bipolar tendencies you will see extreme here..either the women are abusing women rights or either they themselves getting abused..feminism in India is in initial stages in some places and some societies while on the other hand its extreme in some other places..<BR/>indian guys are still mama guys..in most of homes its the women who are running homes actually..while in many others its the opposite..well i can't explain you exactly..Indian men both best(to the extent of placing their woman on pedestal) and worst(to the extent of beating their women for dowry/sex) to women..but indian media is indeed tilted towards women ..because its seems more morally correct..but ask an urban woman and she will tell you indian men are not always bad as the media is always portraying them :D..<BR/>peace!mayankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00049293207411863808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-11817699067199262212008-08-30T09:52:00.000-05:002008-08-30T09:52:00.000-05:00The girls beating men part was funny ..But i agree...The girls beating men part was funny ..But i agree with you..<BR/>i don't whether you know about anti-feminists or masculists..these are people who earlier claimed to be feminists but now they are thrown out of their own feminist group..reason is feminism in some places like US/UK and legally in India has crossed its goal of equality..they have went further to declare that women are more superior then men and are working hard to establish that..some of the instances<BR/>1>women have acquired what was earlier considered as personality traits of a man yet they remain a real women..but when men has personality traits of women(sensitivity ) he is irrational,beta male,weak and is an object to made fun of.<BR/>2>women are considered to be more innocent types and more morally correct every time.<BR/>3>wrong portrayal of men as sex crazed simpletons and hence fools..<BR/>4>dual standards:when men resort to violence its abuse,but when women do it,its justified and in fact treated as humor..<BR/>5>more men die of prostate cancer but you will see awareness ads only for breast cancer..<BR/>6> for the same salary women will be taxed less..<BR/>7>if a girl accuses me of eve teasing i can't do anything ..i will be dead in urban areas of india..media will bash me even before the judgment me being guilty is given<BR/>8>reservations : in school and colleges because you belong to "fairer" sex.<BR/><BR/>I am not a misogynist..but i believe we are humans and we all have manly and feminine traits within ourselves..people use the expression "the recent feminisation of men" but they never used "the recent masculisation of women"...<BR/>we all are drones deep inside and its the social conditioning thats makes us what we are..if am just waiting for a world where men be liberated too ..liberated of what is expected from them..I am just waiting for an era when this gender war will end and we will find ourselves men or women only because of our chromosomesmayankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00049293207411863808noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-33962909766454841022008-08-27T19:51:00.000-05:002008-08-27T19:51:00.000-05:00I completely agree here beth, what bugged me the m...I completely agree here beth, what bugged me the most was that balbir was the only punjabi girl there that had to somehow show the punjabi power by lashing out!I nearly felt like throwing a pie at the screen(i love pie) whhyyyyy is it always the punjabis that have to be angry and stereotypically feisty and full of angriness! We aren't all like that but the argentina game freakout was reasonable, But the fact that she was an angry punjabi also with a unibrow, made that scene just ire-inducing from an also angry but unibrow-free punjabi girl like me! ahhhhRumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10104185865100510017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-47864845764118452962008-08-27T13:44:00.000-05:002008-08-27T13:44:00.000-05:00Hi Beth, awesome topic and loved the post and the ...Hi Beth, awesome topic and loved the post and the comments too.<BR/><BR/>I loved that scene and actually ended up creating <A HREF="http://kananj.blogspot.com/2008/08/ten-things-i-like-about-chak-de-india.html" REL="nofollow">a post on it</A> on my blog.<BR/><BR/>And now that I think of it, the other messages conveyed by this scene as you mentioned are important but take much lower priority than the issue at hand. This reminds me of those church priests we read about in papers and hear about on the news that get fired for harassment of kids. Now imagine them being beaten up! Who wouldn't like that? That reminds me of the scene from Monsoon Wedding where Shefali Shah's character confronts Rajat Kapoor's character. What a marvelous scene! Such powerful woman she portrays.Kananhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07935768144479233027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-40540872055213591962008-08-27T12:55:00.000-05:002008-08-27T12:55:00.000-05:00This comment came in via email from Bitterlemons (...This comment came in via email from Bitterlemons (to whom I apologize for the technical difficulties). <BR/><BR/>I've posted a similar comment on Indiequill as well...to me, that scene is one of the best in the movie...it showed such an effective way to combat the omnipresent street harassment in India. IME, vigilante justice works just fine when other forms of justice do not exist or are not enforced. I feel, feminism in India is in a very initial state now - the state where women have to behave like men to be heard. This stage is somewhat in the past in the U.S. and there are other avenues of expression open to women, but that is not the situation in India, for teh vast majority of women.<BR/>You bring up the lack of consequences for the team in terms of not having to pay for the damages or help clean up - to me, that was part of what was empowering! To explain what I mean: the situation could have been controlled at so many levels: the owner of the McD and the workers could have stopped (or tried to stop) the perpetrators of the harassment. The other patrons could have called out the perps. The other patrons could have stopped the fight after Balbir got into it...none of that happenned. The team's violence then, wasn't just against the actual perps, but also against the environment that stood back and let this happen.<BR/>To then have them clean up or apologise for their actions makes no sense to me, and I suspect, to most women who feel positively about this scene.<BR/>To have Balbir start the fight also made perfect sense in the context of the movie and in the context of the kind of women they were. Most Indian women, including me, are so conditioned to not make a scene, that it would have been very jarring to have anyone else suddenly develop a voice here. Actually, thinking about it, it *might* have worked if Vidya had done so, I think...but I can't really place any of the other girls in that role. As for the violence being too much, or as a seeti-bajao moment (As Banno succintly puts it!) - didn't think so then, but yeah, maybe it was - interestingly, the theatre I saw it in, in Dallas, (Long after it released - the theatre kept it running for a while) noone whistled - there was an approving cheer from most women in the audience :-)<BR/>As for "better ways to express their anger" - IMO, there simply isn't one. Not in the Indian context, and not without a major shift in culture and understanding - that sounds pessimistic, but that's what I feel, from experience. That is one reason I REALLY think popular films could make a difference...by modelling appropriate forms of male-female interaction, for example...but that's another topic, and will save it for another time.<BR/>Regards,<BR/>BitterlemonsBeth Loves Bollywoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05540154833326987567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-53131859513786896382008-08-27T11:12:00.000-05:002008-08-27T11:12:00.000-05:00Very interesting! This could keep us busy for a wh...Very interesting! This could keep us busy for a while.<BR/><BR/>Just want to clarify the 'queer' part. The coach uses the word 'Chhakka', which means 'Sixer'. Sixers are a kind of score in Cricket. Hence the comment 'There are no sixers in Hockey'. But chhakka also means 'Hijda', often called the 'third gender' in India. Calling a man a Hijda is mocking at his masculinity, hence the meaning 'There are no cowards in Hockey'.<BR/>As you might already know, the word Hijda or Chhakka does not directly translate to homosexual. You could google it :)<BR/>This doesn't mean that I disagree with you about how popular Hindi films treat homosexuality. And even if this jibe is not about homosexuality, it is about another huge issue, 'Hijdas' and how they are viewed and treated in India and in Indian films.<BR/><BR/><BR/>About the scene itself: I don't know if the writer intended to send out any message by this, he probably just wanted to show how the girls care for each other enough to fight for each other.<BR/>But, like everything else in the movie it does send out a message, intended or not. It tells Indian women to unite and fight back. In a country where women are expected to bow their heads and walk away from such situations, dress more modestly to avoid such situations and blamed for being bold and confident, which people believe attract such behaviour from men, it is a great enough message. For the same reason, it would have been difficult to show negative consequences to this fight, don't you think that would send out a wrong message?<BR/><BR/>In a country like USA, where such harrassment of women is considered inappropriate by the society, there might be other ways to handle it. In India, though most individuals might consider it wrong, the society in general turns a blind eye to it. Some men in particular think this is expected of them and perfectly proper masculine behaviour. Men of every strata of Indian society 'eve-tease' women, the extent they go to might vary depending on their background. It is also not possible to get action taken against every man in your city!<BR/><BR/>Every Indian woman will have some suppressed rage regarding this issue, as you can see in all the comments here. The want to lash out is so high that I am sure it is quite gratifying to see it on screen. In fact, I have personally seen women reacting like this. In that respect, the movie just shows a filmi version of what happens in reality, not what should happen. I don't think reacting violently is only masculine, I think every living thing reacts physically when posed with threat. So, beating up the men is not taking up their behaviour, but rather, a very basic human reaction to continual humiliation and harrassment.<BR/><BR/>In the real world, the solution to this is probably education of men and empowerment of women. But until that happens, as scary as it may seem, we are sure to see a continuation and growth of such incidents in India and as a result in the films.<BR/><BR/>Side note: Have any men left comments on this topic at all? Would be nice to know what they think.<BR/><BR/>It took me nearly an hour to type the above. I now have a new admiration for you Beth!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12829337312676210797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-41584149250712062312008-08-27T08:18:00.000-05:002008-08-27T08:18:00.000-05:00Chevalier - Absolutely! Shall we write it? :) Colo...Chevalier - Absolutely! Shall we write it? :) Color me hypocritical, but the idea of teenage girls hitting Sanjay Dutt with hockey sticks is totally funny (like in <I>Teesri Manzil</I>!).<BR/><BR/>There <I>must</I> be a <I>Chak De</I> sequel!<BR/><BR/>Spy Girl - I dig what you're saying, but I feel like this particular scene, because of its lack of consequences for the team other than that they get their really awesome and helpful coach back AND realize their inner strength AND cohere as a unite, is that it give the girls the same green light to behave the way we criticize boys for doing. "Boys will we boys" - agreed, a totally vile idea and one that has caused a lot of problems in my own culture, for sure - "and now girls will too." <BR/><BR/>That said, the way girls tend to treat each other, particularly as teenagers, is equally damaging. My own life has more (figurative) scars from my female friends and acquaintances than from males. <BR/><BR/>As for messages, for me this movie was chock full of messages, so for this scene - and judging by the reactions here, it's a powerful one, and in the story it's certainly an important one in the team's trajectory - to be message-free seems inconsistent (and thus another gripe from me for the filmmakers). <BR/><BR/>I do agree with you that some of the details in the scene are pretty powerful - as you say, the exertion, the un-girly movements and noises. I just wish the film had had them demonstrate their anger and voices and power in some other way. But even after thinking about this a lot for a few days, I haven't come up with a better way to do that that would have been as generally appealing to the audiences.Beth Loves Bollywoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05540154833326987567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-4133714632197914492008-08-27T03:31:00.000-05:002008-08-27T03:31:00.000-05:00I agree with Chevalier's first comment on this one...I agree with Chevalier's first comment on this one. Boys who have a disagreement with other boys will more often than not get into a fistfight with each other and get it over with. Because they can. Because that is accepted, if not condoned. And the only comment is "boys will be boys." <BR/><BR/>Generally girls don't have the cultural green light to show overt physical agression like boys do. So when girls have a disagreement with other girls, they are much more likely to snipe at each other indirectly and undermine the other <BR/>girl by verbal means or by wearing her down mentally. Girls have to be subtle about it. (See Mean Girls, of course. Also, I'm trying to think of several books about this sort of topic which I read a few years ago: I can't remember all of the titles, but one was Odd Girl Out: The Hidden Culture of Aggression in Girls. I also remember one called Good Girl Messages: How Young Women Were Misled by Their Favorite Books, about "good girls" in literature who were always "obeying, enduring, sacrificing", including some big names like Nancy Drew and Jo March. Anyhoo, back to my actual comment.) <BR/><BR/>So for these Chak De! girls to take on the McDonald's boys physically, allows them to use a power which they already have, but which may have been denied to them by the unwritten rules in society, or which they <BR/>themselves may have previously smothered. I don't know that there was necessarily a message to be passed along from the movie to the viewer other than showing the girls' use of that type of power (i.e. the ability to allow themselves to be agressive and physical). <BR/><BR/>I think probably the only way in the movie to show they had that option was to show them using it. It also emphasizes that these girls have a physical presence, and are physical beings, in a different way even than you see when they are playing hockey. I think my favorite part of the scene is when it's all over and they survey the area, and the camera pans over the girls and they are breathing hard because they have just exerted themselves <BR/>by fighting and winning against the boys; you can see and feel their physical exertion, and you can see they've just been using their whole <BR/>selves without having to hold anything in or hold anything back.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Also, and I don't know where else to put this comment--all this doesn't make it any more right for them to fight the boys and to leave a big mess*, but just because the fight scene is in the movie, I don't think that people <BR/>will necessarily take away from the film (even unconsciously) the message that that is how people should be acting in real life. I think the scene is just there as a record of how something went down in this particular instance. <BR/><BR/>*Not to mention, to leave a big pile of bruised and injured boys, but let's not forget, the boys didn't run away from the fight. They jumped right in there. And the fight did seem a bit filmi, which made me think they weren't hurt too badly on the whole, so it didn't really bother me that the boys got beaten up. <BR/><BR/>This is a great discussion, Beth and everyone! I loved this movie, fight scene and all.SpyGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09559048129120493591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-28796840779334630502008-08-27T03:28:00.000-05:002008-08-27T03:28:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.SpyGirlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09559048129120493591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-7692656700170389662008-08-27T00:00:00.000-05:002008-08-27T00:00:00.000-05:00Ooooh, I like the idea of Munnabhai in Gandhigiri ...Ooooh, I like the idea of Munnabhai in Gandhigiri mode talking to the Chak de team. In fact, I always thought Chak De warranted a sequel for sure. <BR/><BR/>Maybe like an Aliens vs Predators, they could do a Munnabhai 3 + Chak De 2. <BR/><BR/>Title suggestions? :-)A Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04060692142269517078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-44084856234043102062008-08-26T22:04:00.000-05:002008-08-26T22:04:00.000-05:00Si - As you and others continue to write in on thi...Si - As you and others continue to write in on this question, I'm getting more and more comfortable with part of my initial hunch, which was that one's personal experience with harassment would be a pretty big factor in how one interprets and/or reacts to this scene. <BR/><BR/>I wish I'd seen it in the theater - not only do I think the momentum of the movie and the crowd experience would shape how I saw it, I'm really curious what the crowd reaction was here in Chambana. I have little doubt I would've been disgusted by men getting too into it.<BR/><BR/>Nicki - I had a really brief flash of rooting for them too - that second Balbir yells at the horrid guys. I think seeing in the theater with a lively audience might have carried me along a little further.<BR/><BR/>Bollyviewer - As I read your comment, it occurred to me that for whatever reason, part of my issue with this scene is the <I>group</I> violence - it felt like mob mentality. And then that got me wondering what other group bonding experience the writers might have chosen instead, and I don't have an answer for that yet. <BR/><BR/>Anyway...yeah, it's just a movie, but the rest of it worked for me <I>so well</I>, it was hard to face the part that didn't :)<BR/><BR/>Chevalier - Thanks for coming by!<BR/><BR/>I think you hear me right :) I'm really glad you wrote this all out. I had been thinking about this point before I wrote. I think my basic dilemma is that I do not think the rules during transition to equality, as you rightfully call this fight, should be the same - but I'm not comfortable with them being different. Where does that leave things? Yeah. No idea. In that mythical, uttelry perfect world (which I don't think the movie entirely indulges in), the playing field is leveled instantly and at birth, so that right away every child born has a different world than the one we have and the time to make the changes is minimal. I know that can't happen. <BR/><BR/>To be honest, your second point had not occurred to me at all, and I'm glad you and others are making it. I am absolutely in favor of women taking forms of expression, jobs, physical spaces, etc., that they have been denied access to - but I guess for me the stipulation is that the taking is done with thought and does not violate basic civil rights. <BR/><BR/>Heh, we should get Munnabhai in Gandhigiri mode to talk with the <I>Chak De</I> team and see what they come up with. I'd love to hear that debate.<BR/><BR/>Filmi Girl - Isn't that cool? I'm hoping some people from places other than India, Canada, and the US pipe up too (if they haven't already - I think those 3 countries are home to the people whose handles I recognize), so we can add some more experiences into the mix. <BR/><BR/>As for the "filmi" context, I think I had chucked that out by the time this scene rolled around because the rest of the movie felt pretty un-filmi to me, despite its idealistic finish for the team and for the individuals in it.Beth Loves Bollywoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05540154833326987567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-75708948579930382392008-08-26T15:33:00.000-05:002008-08-26T15:33:00.000-05:00Such an interesting post! I love the comments, to...Such an interesting post! I love the comments, too. So many different takes on a single scene show the different places we watch films from. <BR/><BR/>It's been a while since I've seen this, but I think my reaction at the time was similar to <B>Bollyviewer</B>'s. Because the violence was "filmi" I didn't read it as real violence. Maybe that was a mistake on my part...Filmi Girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09292362161639177666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-23427029040752586882008-08-26T15:26:00.000-05:002008-08-26T15:26:00.000-05:00BethI came here to this post via IndieQuill. As it...Beth<BR/><BR/>I came here to this post via IndieQuill. As it does for all the commenters, this scene specially worked for me, and here's why:<BR/><BR/>You're saying, if I hear you right, that the 'underclass' should not adopt the same means of achieving freedom as the ‘overclass’ has used as a tool of oppression against them. That's right, and valid. However, often when we want to overcome barriers of privilege, which is what feminism is mostly about, the rules are not the same for both classes to begin with, and therefore the rules during the transition to equality will be different. It’s not a level playing field, and in order to make it level, some amount of forcible power distribution is necessary. This is, to use a crude analogy, akin to taxing wealthier people at a higher rate, simply because the implications of withholding power from the overclass are not the same as when you withhold power from an underclass. I think the point that was being made was ‘no one of these 10-20 men will ever messes with any girl again’ – and so they’ve achieved peace of mind for all women w.r.t these men, as opposed to the point being ‘no man ever messes with these 16 girls again’ – which would’ve then been a small pseudo-victory.<BR/><BR/>Secondly, most straight Indian men exist in a culture where violence is ‘their domain’, their medium of expression, their territory. As Aspi said earlier, these women did not take the traditional ‘approved for women’ medium of expression – verbal abuse, screaming, disengaging, etc. Throughout the movie, these girls were actually co-opting ‘exclusive male domains’ – whether it was sports, or supporting their families, or being publicly feted for achievements, for their individuality, or even, as in this case, a physical, angry reaction to harassment. I found that refreshing – that allowance by a Hindi movie that anger was available to me, a woman, as a legitimate form of expression. I did not have to cower in shame, or use non-physical anger release mechanisms. I could publicly, physically, immediately, level the playing field. <BR/><BR/>And that was satisfying.A Ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04060692142269517078noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-8270866320886635262008-08-26T14:38:00.000-05:002008-08-26T14:38:00.000-05:00Agree with littletortoise on what it takes to comb...Agree with <B>littletortoise</B> on what it takes to combat daily harassment [of women] in India. There have been times when I wished I could bash up some of these "teasers" too! Having said that, I agree with you that violence is not the answer since this kind of behaviour is symptomatic of Indian society and reflects the place of women in Indian culture. It can only be changed with education and enlightenment and in any real-life situation I wouldnt condone violence. In a movie though, its truly cathartic and I can identify with the girls' anger and their outburst! Its soooooo good to see the girls bashing up the baddies and coming out on top while their coach supports them. :-)Bollyviewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17270927806254662068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-27957731167266790042008-08-26T10:53:00.000-05:002008-08-26T10:53:00.000-05:00I loooove this movie. I agree with you about how ...I loooove this movie. I agree with you about how you reacted about that scene. I was in the middle. I was stuck between rooting for the girls to why the violence? However, later I learn that it happens a lot in India. I know many Indian women who loved that scene and loved the fact that the guys.Nickihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17535320732377404085noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-66933109571840250132008-08-26T10:07:00.001-05:002008-08-26T10:07:00.001-05:00I've seen this movie only three times now (once in...I've seen this movie only three times now (once in India, once at home, once in class), and truthfully, that's one of the few scenes in the movie I really enjoy. Of course, I'm the one who almost clocked a guy at the railway station for his inappropriate behavior. In addition, just a couple of weeks before I saw this movie in the theatre, I had been grabbed by a group of boys while I was out walking with friends, and no one but me took it seriously or understood why I was upset. And I ABSOLUTELY regret not shoving the kid who once ran me down with his bicycle because he was too busy making kissing noises at me to steer. So, I could really understand the desire, so often forbidden to women in India, to really reclaim one's space physically. I can see how pent up anger would lead to beating the crap out of a bunch of boys who think they can be sexually aggressive and socially rude without having to face any consequences.<BR/><BR/>That said, the way the men over-enjoyed this scene in the theatre really bothered me. Much like all the excessive coverage of women's beach volleyball in the Olympics bothered me--it's just an excuse for men to enjoy a little women-on-women action.<BR/><BR/>Ah, well, we've already discussed my lack of love for this film. Just can't get beyond the stereotypes and cliches.JRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07300525020981762048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15977843.post-50019923933914506742008-08-26T10:07:00.000-05:002008-08-26T10:07:00.000-05:00Aspi - Ha, unsophisticated. That's one way to put ...Aspi - Ha, unsophisticated. That's one way to put it. You really don't think there are other ways to address men's treatment of women? I see what you're saying about the stereotype of women being adept with verbal torment, but off the top of my head I guess I don't see why that's as bad as (or worse than) violent behavior (of course bearing in mind that words can be terribly hurtful and damaging). <BR/><BR/>And yes definitely, the regional stereotypes are troubling. I didn't catch "queer" in the subtitles - that's vile too. The way popular Hindi films treat homosexuality is really troubling.Beth Loves Bollywoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05540154833326987567noreply@blogger.com